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peachpeach

is the cost reasonable

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Dear experts, i was being quoted for a major a&a via a direct builder (no external archi, but they have in house archi) for an existing 3 storey and an addition of an attic. there is no rebuilt as we trying to avoid that. there is no change of # of rooms. we did req for an addition ensuite toilet for master and walk in closet. on first look, it looks on the high side. so want to know from you guys which of these big item cost is  off grid or optional. thanks alot! 

1. Authorities fees : 

URA  $ 6.5k
BCA  $ 2k
Submission by Architect & PE $ 35k

2. prelim works (incl pest control, pre con survey, rto fees, temp toilets, topo survey cost etc) : $65k

3. demolition and excavation : 30k

4. anti termite 2.5k

5. rc sub structure and super structure : ~ 80k

6. steel works ~50k

7. internal and ext wall 30k

8. metal roof 20k

9. waterproofing 7k

10. wall finishes 100k

11. floor finishes 80k

12. ceiling finishes 20k

13. doors, windows, panels 50k

14. external works (walls, gate, drain) 20k

15. m&e 115k

 

this all excludes carpentry and sanitary fitings. adds up to 713k, 

 

thanks alot

 
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many builders have "in-house" architects who are registered architects who will sign the plans and do submissions for a fee. it doesn't mean the architect is working for the builder but rather on a free-lance or project basis. do note that in case of issues, you know which side the architect is on as the architect is not hired by you.

URA fees for reconstruction is $6000 plus GST = $6420 in case you want to know the exact amount. since you adding another storey (attic) it would be classified as reconstruction and not A&A.

prelim looks fair

anti-termite looks fair. check how many years warranty is being provided.

not sure what addition structure is being proposed but steel does look abit high if the steel works is just for the new roof

internal and external wall looks fair. but if you want to cut cost, don't do external wall. just do fencing instead. can save you some $$$ and also improve air flow

metal roof looks fair. but check what type of roof is being proposed. if using metal roof from Bluescope Lysaght then sounds ok. make sure all the essential waterproofing and substrates are proposed and done properly as metal roof have multiple layers to provide insulation and water proofing

water proofing looks a bit high. but i'm not sure how many areas (balcony, roof terrace, toilets) you need to do. check what brand of water proofing material is being proposed.

wall finishes include what? plastering? tiling? painting?

floor finishes using what type of material? marble? homogenous tiles? engineered wood? parquet?

doors, windows, panels look fair. do check and make sure that all door frames are redone and not reused from existing house

external works look fair. but ask for more detail on what is being done. also is external wall works quoted 2 times?

M&E includes what? full aircon whole house? have ducted aircon? whole house rewired with new wiring and network points? whole house plumbing redone?

if the quote is before GST, do add in the 7% GST for the actual amount. carpentry and sanitary could add on another 70K to 100k depending on how extensive you want your carpentry and what brand of fittings you choose. a toilet bowl can range from below $200 to more than $1000 depending on the brand and technology.

at 700+k, topping up another 20% to 30% of budget could actually be enough for rebuilt of an entire new house.

 
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thanks snoozee!! always helpful!

 

1. the steelworks include attic, staircase (they propose a shift of the staircase to make way for a future lift if we want) and roof structure. no further details given

2. wads the downside for fencing? whats the diff? sorry dont know the terminology

3. wall finishes include external wall plaster, weatherbond for extrernal wall, internal wall plaster, cement for tile, emulsion paint, homo wall tile, exisiting wall in plaster. is it therefore still on the high side?

4. m&e : sanitary&plumbing 40k, electrical works (proection lighting pt - 95 pts, also what does this mean?) 45k, aircon 30k

5. carpentry i was quoted 50k, sanitary 14k

 

could u also comment if u think the overall cost of recon is 25th, 50th, 75th percentile versus the rest?

Edited by peachpeach
 
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generally structural steel is more expensive than concrete. so the proposed steel staircase would cost more than having an RC staircase. in order to reduce the structure loading on the existing house structure for the attic, the builder is proposing steel column and beams for the attic roof hence also reducing the amount of reinforcement needed to the foundation or/and existing columns and beams.

are you planning to have this as your retirement home? if your plan is just stay a few years and then sell, then don't bother wasting money to shift the stairs if you are not putting in a lift now.

if you have been to industrial areas, you would see that most industrial areas have similar fencing. search online for BRC fence and you would know what I'm referring to. downside is slightly less privacy but if you are into gardening, then can plant some small trees or creepers to maintain the privacy. plants also have the effect of cooling down the environment as well. if fence is not your thing and you want high privacy, then just built the brick wall.

wall finishes I can't comment too much as not sure how much coverage is needed for your house.

sanitary and plumbing seems fair. just make sure that all existing waste pipes are replaced with new ones. electrical works seems fair as well. double check that network points are provided for in each room and the kitchen as well. kitchen is latest requirement from IMDA. if possible request for double network points in each room so that you can have 1 for computer/data and 1 for TV set top box.

aircon 30k sounds fair assuming that all rooms have wall units and 2 ceiling units for the living room. don't think you are getting ducted aircon for 30k

carpentry 50k sounds fair. but could be minimum works though and customisation could cost more.

sanitary 14k sounds high though unless you are provided brands like Duravit or Toto.

if you think the overall cost is too high, get quotations from a few other builders to compare. don't just settle on the first one you get before doing comparisons.

 
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Hi Snooze, you seems very experienced and i like to seek your advice on the following.  I am looking at a semi-d at eunos. It is a regular land of 3900 sq feet (width is about 16m and depth is abt 22m) . I am looking to rebuild it up to 3.5 storey with possibly a car basement. 

I like to ask you if you know that a car basement can be had in all landed or it will be case-by-case basis? I could not find clear guideline on the basement carpark except the 2.5m height limit, 1m protruding limit, 104mpl.

Thank you in advance.

 

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21 hours ago, Jr Jp said:

Hi Snooze, you seems very experienced and i like to seek your advice on the following.  I am looking at a semi-d at eunos. It is a regular land of 3900 sq feet (width is about 16m and depth is abt 22m) . I am looking to rebuild it up to 3.5 storey with possibly a car basement. 

I like to ask you if you know that a car basement can be had in all landed or it will be case-by-case basis? I could not find clear guideline on the basement carpark except the 2.5m height limit, 1m protruding limit, 104mpl.

Thank you in advance.

adding a basement will easily add a few hundred K to the construction costs. the bulk of the cost is to erect a temporary structure or commonly known as ERSS to support the existing ground from collapsing when the soil is excavated for the basement. it is similar to what one would commonly see at MRT construction sites but at a smaller scale.

for basements, the general guideline is that the basement should be fully enclosed. however if your existing land is below 104mrl, your first storey MUST be at or above this 104mrl level. so the part of the building below 104mrl can be considered as a basement even though it is at/above the road level. eg: your land is at 103mrl. so you need to either do an earth fill to top up 1m or have your floor beams higher up so that your 1st storey is at 104mrl. if you decide to top up the earth, means you will either have a ramp up or do a staircase from the existing ground level to go up to your 1st storey. but if you decide to do a basement, the part below 104mrl can be considered as part of the basement and your building height of 15.5m (for 3 storey) is counted from the 104mrl level. meaning the max height of your house can be at 119.5mrl.

generally there is no max height for the basement but minimum height of 2.4m from floor to ceiling is required by BCA. so assuming the case that your land is at 103mrl, you need to excavate another 2m or so to build your basement. 2m is to include allowance for works to do up the underground beams etc. (i'm no PE so the 2m might be more)

now, if your house is already at 104mrl or higher, then you will need to dig deeper to built your basement. your architect would then need to design the driveway to allow for the required slope/gradient for your vehicle to enter. at 22m depth, i'm not sure if you have enough space for driveway or not. LTA guidelines for road access slope is 1:10 or max 1:8.3. meaning for every 1m drop in vertical height, you need to be able to go horizontal at least 8.3m or 10m. so with 2.5m of drop required, you would need  at least 20.75m of depth to 25m of depth.

of cos if your existing house is on sloping land, then it does make things easier. there are quite a number of houses which are sitting much higher than the road level. as such, it is easy to excavate the land to build the "basement" and then build the upper floors above it. however do note that URA had updated their guidelines on houses on slopping ground to take into account the slope as part of the building envelope.

again, i'm not an architect or PE and above information is based on my understanding of the guidelines from various agencies. if you need detailed planning information, then best is to approach an architect and talk to them. also URA approaches each house on a case by case basis so they will apply the current day guidelines to your submissions. so even if something could be done say 2 years ago, it doesn't mean that you can do it today since the guidelines had changed.

Edited by snoozee
 

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Just to share my experience as a builder to advice how to save cost.

For basement or underground construction, as long as the excavation depth does not exceed 1.5 metre, no ERSS will be needed.

In the job which I've completed, I design the basement to be "Half above" & "Half below" the existing ground. This means assuming the ground of the origin land / house is 0 level, I only need to excavate 1.5 metre to construct the basement & the new 1st storey will be 1.5 metre above. As for the foundation pile cap / footing, it'll be within another 1.5 metre below the excavated basement.

This potentially save the owner about 75 to 100k in ERSS cost including the ERSS Engineer Fee.

As for the excavated earth, it can be recycle to top up the ground surrounding the basement.

Of course, this method is feasible provided the authorities had already advice the new house's Reduced Level during the initial submission stage.

In addition, the current authorities' requirement allows for opening for basement ventilation.

Hence, in my design, the rear garden ground level remains unchanged as the old house with the side & front of the new house raised. This will allow a void on the rear basement wall. This means the owner save another cost to install mechanical ventilation fan to the basement.

 

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17 hours ago, Jr Jp said:

Hi Snooze, you seems very experienced and i like to seek your advice on the following.  I am looking at a semi-d at eunos. It is a regular land of 3900 sq feet (width is about 16m and depth is abt 22m) . I am looking to rebuild it up to 3.5 storey with possibly a car basement. 

I like to ask you if you know that a car basement can be had in all landed or it will be case-by-case basis? I could not find clear guideline on the basement carpark except the 2.5m height limit, 1m protruding limit, 104mpl.

Thank you in advance.

Maybe I can help with some layout to better help to advice on what is & is not necessary.

Just email your requirement, I'll help with estimated cost.

I forgot to mention that in the 2 storey semi-D with 1 basement & 1 Attic was completed without charging GST which means owner save another 80 to 90K. Of course this is all done legally as I do not take on many jobs & maintain my company's annual turnover below $1 million. I like to focus on design & cost saving which benefits both the owner & builder.

 

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9 minutes ago, 3Cube said:

Just to share my experience as a builder to advice how to save cost.

For basement or underground construction, as long as the excavation depth does not exceed 1.5 metre, no ERSS will be needed.

In the job which I've completed, I design the basement to be "Half above" & "Half below" the existing ground. This means assuming the ground of the origin land / house is 0 level, I only need to excavate 1.5 metre to construct the basement & the new 1st storey will be 1.5 metre above. As for the foundation pile cap / footing, it'll be within another 1.5 metre below the excavated basement.

This potentially save the owner about 75 to 100k in ERSS cost including the ERSS Engineer Fee.

As for the excavated earth, it can be recycle to top up the ground surrounding the basement.

Of course, this method is feasible provided the authorities had already advice the new house's Reduced Level during the initial submission stage.

In addition, the current authorities' requirement allows for opening for basement ventilation.

Hence, in my design, the rear garden ground level remains unchanged as the old house with the side & front of the new house raised. This will allow a void on the rear basement wall. This means the owner save another cost to install mechanical ventilation fan to the basement.

the "half above" and "half below" means that the building height is taken from the ground level and the part where the basement is exposed above ground is taken into consideration in the overall building height.

excavate 1.5m for basement and another 1.5m for foundation equals 3m don't need ERSS? taking on quite a bit of risk even though BCA allows some leeway on ERSS requirements. BCA officers go around checking on sites every day and any excavation done beyond what is allowed will mean stop work order being imposed.

excavated earth can only do top up of up to 1m. anything more than that means need to do permanent retaining wall already which means additional cost.

again, URA will approve on case by case basis. what can be done last time doesn't mean now can be done as building regulations had changed over the last few years.

 

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Just want to highlight the "myth" of NO GST

GST is chargable by any companies whose turn over is more than 1M in a year. this is by law

if a builder tells you that he don't charge GST, it doesn't mean that you don't pay GST for the job. it is just that you do not see the GST component in the invoice from the builder since the builder can't charge you GST as he can't claim GST back from IRAS.

in case one doesn't know how GST works

GST registered companies need to charge customers GST for all goods and services provided. but they can also get GST refund from all goods and services purchased from their suppliers and this is contra off in the quarterly GST submission to IRAS.

for example, a GST registered contractor charges you $10K for installing say aircon. so you will need to pay $10K plus GST which in today's context equals an amount of $10.7K to the contractor. But if the contractor purchases the aircon equipment at $9K from his GST registered supplier, the contractor would have paid $9630 to the supplier. the contractor would then need to pay IRAS $70 for the GST difference since he had charged you $700 in GST but he had paid his supplier $630 in GST. so his profit from this is $1k.

now if a contractor is not GST registered, he would still need to pay $9630 to the same aircon supplier for the aircon equipment. so in order to maintain his same $1k profit, he would need to charge you at $10630 for the aircon supply and install. if the contractor charges you $10k for the supply and install, this would mean that his profit is now only $370.

so as one can see, the no GST story is a "myth" in the construction industry as one would end up paying GST either directly or indirectly.

Edited by snoozee
 

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40 minutes ago, Jr Jp said:

Snoozee, other than getting a surveyor to do a TOPO, is there any way to get the MPL of a said property?

MPL is issued by PUB. if you want to know the various levels of the house, you will need to perform a topo. depending on how old the house is, the original house plans may have the levels information. but you can't buy the plans from BCA unless you are the owner or authorised by the owner. check with the sellers if they have the existing house plans or not.

another way to estimate whether the house is above or below 104mrl is to see the neighbours houses especially those that are rebuilt in the last 5 years. usually if you see house which have steps leading up to the 1st storey, it would likely mean the area is below 104mrl.

 

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