Consultancy and ID cost

[Chewie family 0]

Hi,

would like to get some advise. I have recently gotten a inter terrace and would like to carry out the rebuilt as it was build in the 70s.

I have gotten a quote  of $40k from a consultancy firm that takes care of the submission, PE and structural from beginning to CSC. This does not include the URA fees or surveyor fees. 

I have separately gotten a design fee quote of $15k from a ID. Like to check if this $55k is a reasonable amount? Thanks. 

[snoozee 97]

Is your consultants firm a registered architectural firm? 
you are rebuilding an entire house and even though a PE can submit the plans to the authorities (URA, BCA, etc) the PE may not have the full knowledge of the regulations on designing and planning for a house.

A PE would charge around 20k for his role in designing the structure for a house and coordinating with the submissions to BCA, LTA, PUB, etc. so assuming the 40k quote includes the PE fees, see how much is left for the architect (if any) and the profit margin of the consultant.

maybe your consultant will get a freelance architect to design your house for a fee but don’t expect anything fancy in the design since this architect would most probably use back an existing design and adjust it to your site dimensions. 
 

most IDs would not have knowledge of landed housing and the requirements. So they may suggest things which can’t conform to regulations. If you yourself don’t have the knowledge and you don’t have a proper architect to advise you, your house may end up not in adherence to regulations and you may have issues obtaining TOP after construction is finished. 
 

I would suggest you either go to an architectural firm to work on your project or check with your consultancy firm on whether there would be an architect involved in your project or not. If there is, get the name and registration number of the architect to check on BOA website to confirm. 
 

building a house costs a lot of money and some money can’t be saved. The worst thing you want to happen is to start off in the wrong foot and this will end up costing you more than what you though you could have saved. 

[Chewie family 0]

Thanks Snoozee for the sound advice. I will check if the consultancy firm is under the registered list.

May I know if the $20k for the PE fees you mention include structural engineer fees? 

And what would be an estimated cost if approaching an Architectural firm for an inter terrace? Thanks a lot. 

[snoozee 97]

You can check BOA website for list of architectural firms. An architectural firm will have at least one registered architect working for the firm. If you can’t find the company name in the list means the company is not an architectural firm at all. 
 

PE is the professional engineer who will design the structure of the house. The fees should include this design service as well as them doing the submissions to authorities. 

architect fees can range quite a bit. It depends on how famous the firm is as well as the scope of work required of the architect for the project. So fees can be below 100k or more than 100k for an inter terrace. 

[IceEyez 4]

Hi all,

Just to clarify, PEs (Meaning engineer QPs) are not allowed to submit for New Erection (Tear down completely and rebuild) or Recon category submissions for landed houses. PEs are only allowed to submit for A&A category works for landed. Architect QP will be required in your situation.

For an inter terrace house, expect structural engineer fees to cost around $18-$25k (Assuming 3 stories, excluding basement). Structural will both design the structure and get approvals from BCA for the structural portions of the project.

Architect fees around $60k and above depending on complexity of design envisioned, size of house required, how famous/skilled the architect is. There are super established famous architects that will easily charge $120k and above even for a small inter-terrace houses

 

 

[greatrox99 3]

can get a design & build builder that handles the submission. tks

[Brightie 0]

Hi

Our preference is to engage the Architect and go through the tender process per the standard route for our newly purchased property.

After speaking to a few architects, most insist on appointing 3 independent consultants -  Structural, M & E and QS. While I understand the need for structural consultant, I thought M & E could be handled by the appointed Main Con's LEW or QP. As for the QS, since there will be standard tender document and all bids have to be itemised anyway - engaging a QS is optional. The architects' stand was that engaging the M & E consultant will look after our interest and not the main con's. They also advised  the cost of engaging the QS will be more than covered by the costs savings they bring in through their cost management expertise.

Does anyone have more insight or actual experience to share on this view as I am wondering if I may be missing some points? 

Thanks

[snoozee 97]

19 minutes ago, Brightie said:

Hi

Our preference is to engage the Architect and go through the tender process per the standard route for our newly purchased property.

After speaking to a few architects, most insist on appointing 3 independent consultants -  Structural, M & E and QS. While I understand the need for structural consultant, I thought M & E could be handled by the appointed Main Con's LEW or QP. As for the QS, since there will be standard tender document and all bids have to be itemised anyway - engaging a QS is optional. The architects' stand was that engaging the M & E consultant will look after our interest and not the main con's. They also advised  the cost of engaging the QS will be more than covered by the costs savings they bring in through their cost management expertise.

Does anyone have more insight or actual experience to share on this view as I am wondering if I may be missing some points? 

Thanks

my house was rebuilt without an M&E engineer and QS. 

for me, i designed my electrical and networking layout for my house based on what i think my family would need. no point talking to someone on what i already thought of and then have the someone translate that into drawings when i can just indicate on the paper plans and then the architect put in the details into the drawings. I also designed the aircon requirements and how the pipes are to be run through the house. This would be a bit more challenging as there needs to be some detailed thought process on how the gas pipes can be run through the various floors to the aircon ledge or balcony.

i am on site almost every day so i have first hand knowledge of what is the progress on site as well as understand any problems that could cause potential delays.  

the main contractor would have his own engineers (M&E, Structural, etc). the plumber will has his own engineer to submit the drawings. the electrician has his own engineer to submit the applications and drawings. so for a normal landed house, an M&E engineer isn't really needed.

QS requirement also is subjective unless you want someone to verify and approve the progress claims (based on actual site progress and delivery of materials) before the architect issues the interim payment cert. cost management is also subjective as once you agree on the pricing, you are bound by it. unless you want to adjust the costing before the contract is awarded. but from the itemised breakdown of the tender bids, you would be able to see where you can adjust and cut to reduce cost which the architect should be able to advise you based on his/her experience as well. of cos since i didn't engage a QS, there might be more scope of work to a QS which i'm not aware of.

do note that whichever consultants you engage, they are supposed to look after your interests and not the main contractor's since you are the employer. so this includes the RTO who will be directly under your employment as well.

[IceEyez 4]

On 4/16/2021 at 11:53 AM, Brightie said:

Hi

Our preference is to engage the Architect and go through the tender process per the standard route for our newly purchased property.

After speaking to a few architects, most insist on appointing 3 independent consultants -  Structural, M & E and QS. While I understand the need for structural consultant, I thought M & E could be handled by the appointed Main Con's LEW or QP. As for the QS, since there will be standard tender document and all bids have to be itemised anyway - engaging a QS is optional. The architects' stand was that engaging the M & E consultant will look after our interest and not the main con's. They also advised  the cost of engaging the QS will be more than covered by the costs savings they bring in through their cost management expertise.

Does anyone have more insight or actual experience to share on this view as I am wondering if I may be missing some points? 

Thanks

Hi, 

As an Architect, maybe i can shed a bit more light about this topic.

Structural Engineer: Don't need to talk, if there is any structural work involved, they will be required. 😂

M&E Engineer: We only recommend having a M&E Engineer if there are more complex requirements for the project or if the client has very particular requirements about the performance of the M&E component of the house.

If the project requires water tank/pumps, has a huge swimming pool or reflective pool, complex home automation requirements, extensive solar paneling etc, the M&E Engineer will be able to advise on the size/specifications and best placement of the relevant items (pump, filtration tank, solar panel DB etc.) so that in the process of designing the architectural layout/design we can already take it into consideration. It will be very unpleasant for the owner when the whole design is finalized and about to start construction to realize that for example that there is insufficient space for the swimming pool balacing tank/filtration system at the proposed position, resulting in having to compromise on the original preferred layout.

The other case is if the client is extremely concerned about the performance of the M&E systems and want to squeeze out every little bit of performance, or want to specify the best materials to avoid any long term headaches about maintenance. For example, the Architect might have a general idea of what kind of aircon piping is the best (Armaflex versus closed cell insulation), but we will not know how exactly how to specify it when calling for tender, nor verify on site subsequently that all these have been constructed by the contractor correctly. M&E engineer will also be able to draw how all the pipes (Aircon condensate, refrigerant, electrical cabling, plumbing, sanitary) runs within the whole house and already advise how much false ceiling space is required for the Architect to coordinate the design better.

Just like the architect is the specialist in ensuring contractor builds the architectural components according to the drawings/specifications, the M&E engineer will be able to check on site that the contractor builds the M&E components correctly.

QS: We recommend having a QS for most projects, unless the scale is smaller, example A&A less than 500k, where there is not enough job scope and thus not enough potential savings to offset the cost of engaging one.

a QS has several roles:

1) Provide preliminary estimates of the house during multiple points of the design stages. This helps the owner and architect decide whether to proceed with the design or scale back the design/material specifications. It would be a huge waste of everybody's time to design something that is out of the owner's budget and having to change the design after it has been approved by the authorities and already at the tender stage. It is true that the Architect should have a rough idea of costs/budget when designing, but we will not be able to break down the costs into components like what a QS would do. For example, lets say the owner is considering between marble flooring and engineered wood flooring. QS would be able to work out the exact cost difference based on the area, prevailing market material & labour rates so that a decision can be made straight away.

2) Come up with this thing called a Schedule of works. This Schedule of works basically translates the Architect's tender drawings into "text format". Every component of the design, example doors, labour of installing tiles, is itemized so that when prices are submitted, you can easily do a item to item comparison across all tenderers. We can then who priced what items higher than usual, what are the expensive things to omit if necessary etc. Without this schedule of works, be prepared to receive quotations from each contractor in their own format. It will be itemized but for example, Contractor A might split it in such a way that the price of the aluminium doors/windows are lumped together, while Contractor B lumps price of timber doors and aluminium doors together. How to compare in this case? QS makes sure everybody submits in the same format.

3) During construction, typically contractor submits monthly progress claims based on work done on site for the previous month. QS will go down to site to verify/check the work done on site versus what the contractor claims. This is important because you don't want to overpay the contractor when work has not been done. Worse case scenario, imagine if you've already paid out for a lot of work not yet done and contractor runs away, it will be very difficult to recover the cost.

4) If there is any changes to the design during construction due to unforeseen circumstances (example rock discovered in the soil that causes change in foundation design), or if client requested changes (example decide to change to marble flooring halfway), contractor will submit a cost claim. The QS will be able to verify/challenge the amount submitted by the contractor, because they have a expertise/knowledge of market rates and quantities. Architect may only be able to advise that is "seems higher" than normal but will not be able to counter with an actual amount.



OK thats quite a bit to read, hopefully doesn't bore you but helps you have a better understanding of why the Architects you approached might have recommended you to engage all 3 consultants

[Alkft 0]

Hi wanted some advice on interterrace renovations. Not intending to tear down and rebuild. 
but looking to extend backwards till allowable setback on second and third storey. 
also to remove pillars in middle of front porch. 
our unit has an Airwell - unsure if should keep this or close it up and have the toilets re-sited as now all the toilet open to the Airwell for ventilation. 
 

wirh all this, I think it would constitute A&A and the increase in gfa likely less than 50% of current overall buildup. 
 

wondering in such a case of. 3 storey approx 2900 sq ft build up 28yr old inter terrace — would going with architect or design and build firm be better?

 

had spiked to a design and build firm who says that when want to extend level 2 and 3, might as well cover up Airwell, reside toilets, do up attic as once u start on one part, the rest might as well do as well since cost wise not much difference.  Or rather a little bit more and can achieve maximization of the buildup. But he will keep to less than 50% increase so as to keep under A&A which he says doesn’t need architect ?? And can submit as lodgement so the process won’t take so long. And he says can finish construction in 5 months. 

[snoozee 97]

33 minutes ago, Alkft said:

Hi wanted some advice on interterrace renovations. Not intending to tear down and rebuild. 
but looking to extend backwards till allowable setback on second and third storey. 
also to remove pillars in middle of front porch. 
our unit has an Airwell - unsure if should keep this or close it up and have the toilets re-sited as now all the toilet open to the Airwell for ventilation. 
 

wirh all this, I think it would constitute A&A and the increase in gfa likely less than 50% of current overall buildup. 
 

wondering in such a case of. 3 storey approx 2900 sq ft build up 28yr old inter terrace — would going with architect or design and build firm be better?

 

had spiked to a design and build firm who says that when want to extend level 2 and 3, might as well cover up Airwell, reside toilets, do up attic as once u start on one part, the rest might as well do as well since cost wise not much difference.  Or rather a little bit more and can achieve maximization of the buildup. But he will keep to less than 50% increase so as to keep under A&A which he says doesn’t need architect ?? And can submit as lodgement so the process won’t take so long. And he says can finish construction in 5 months. 

Keep the air well. Toilets always better to have natural ventilation. Redo the toilets if need to touch the waste pipes will add on to your coat. 
 

5 months sounds very ambitious in today’s context and especially you are doing extension. 
 

[Alkft 0]

1 hour ago, snoozee said:

Keep the air well. Toilets always better to have natural ventilation. Redo the toilets if need to touch the waste pipes will add on to your coat. 
 

5 months sounds very ambitious in today’s context and especially you are doing extension. 
 

Hi yes I thought the design and build company was very ambitious in saying 5 months for construction, and when I asked how can it be possible, he says he has his own workers. 
 

Thank you for your reply. May I then ask for advice - would such an endeavor A&A with main aim of creating 2 more bedrooms And 1 more common toilet , moving pillar at front porch for an interterrace, u would advise to go architect consultancy or with design and build firm? This is our first landed so we are very clueless. 
And estimate on such A&A with full interior renovation ( we don’t need marble flooring), would it be 500-600k? Or higher?
 

also with the age of the inter terrace being built back in 1993, would the waste pipes, roofing all mans parquet be ok to keep as is?

The Airwell - the previous owner had made it such that water / rain doesn’t come in  

so far with the rainy season, I haven’t seen any leaks. The place was bought from first owner who did do regular maintenance of roof and painting. 

[snoozee 97]

1 hour ago, Alkft said:

Hi yes I thought the design and build company was very ambitious in saying 5 months for construction, and when I asked how can it be possible, he says he has his own workers. 
 

Thank you for your reply. May I then ask for advice - would such an endeavor A&A with main aim of creating 2 more bedrooms And 1 more common toilet , moving pillar at front porch for an interterrace, u would advise to go architect consultancy or with design and build firm? This is our first landed so we are very clueless. 
And estimate on such A&A with full interior renovation ( we don’t need marble flooring), would it be 500-600k? Or higher?
 

also with the age of the inter terrace being built back in 1993, would the waste pipes, roofing all mans parquet be ok to keep as is?

The Airwell - the previous owner had made it such that water / rain doesn’t come in  

so far with the rainy season, I haven’t seen any leaks. The place was bought from first owner who did do regular maintenance of roof and painting. 

even with own workers, specialist sub-contractors would need to be involved in the construction/renovation and these are the variables.

the main difference between having an architect vs direct with a D&B firm is that you have someone else doing the project management for your as well as looking after your interests. not to mention that a proper tender can be called by the architect for you to get the best quote rather than just signing off on a quotation from a D&B firm without knowing if you are over paying for it or not.

500-600k I would say is enough if planned properly.

if the house's main waste pipes are already PVC ones, then whether to change them or not is up to you. if still cast iron pipes then best is change them. other things to change are the water pipes and electrical wirings. add sufficient network points for your rooms as well. parquet can be sanded down and varnished again to "renew" it.

since you are extending the rear, you will end up needing a roof to cover the rear extension. so whether to extend your attic to cover the extension as well as to extend the main roof is up to you. 

[Kellhound 4]

1 hour ago, snoozee said:

even with own workers, specialist sub-contractors would need to be involved in the construction/renovation and these are the variables.

the main difference between having an architect vs direct with a D&B firm is that you have someone else doing the project management for your as well as looking after your interests. not to mention that a proper tender can be called by the architect for you to get the best quote rather than just signing off on a quotation from a D&B firm without knowing if you are over paying for it or not.

500-600k I would say is enough if planned properly.

if the house's main waste pipes are already PVC ones, then whether to change them or not is up to you. if still cast iron pipes then best is change them. other things to change are the water pipes and electrical wirings. add sufficient network points for your rooms as well. parquet can be sanded down and varnished again to "renew" it.

since you are extending the rear, you will end up needing a roof to cover the rear extension. so whether to extend your attic to cover the extension as well as to extend the main roof is up to you. 

Hi Snoozee,

I was offered options of stainless steel or copper or PVC for water piping. What are the pros and cons of each?

[snoozee 97]

7 minutes ago, Kellhound said:

Hi Snoozee,

I was offered options of stainless steel or copper or PVC for water piping. What are the pros and cons of each?

are you sure it is PVC and not PPR? PVC for waste pipes and temporary water pipes yes. never heard of PVC being used for fresh water pipes although it is used as electrical wire conduits.

my house was done with stainless steel pipes. plumber told me that copper nowadays isn't that pure so copper pipes more problematic and prone to leaks now. but maybe also because of cost as well cos copper cost is much higher than stainless steel which is why my plumber used SS instead.
my plumber also used crimped joints for the stainless steel pipes. you can't crimp copper pipes though they can be welded.

PPR pipes need to be joined with heat and more troublesome. my plumber was complaining about how troublesome it is to do for his other job site. my understanding for PPR is that the pipe size is bigger so more troublesome to conceal in walls. also with plastics, there will be a limited lifespan and PPR is stated with a lifespan of about 50 years.