The Experience: Our First Home

[summersann 6]

I think agreeing on a schedule is important. We didn't do this, partly because we're pretty trusting and had given our IDs a generous amount of time for the work required. But in hindsight, as clients, this was pretty stupid. I guess we were lucky nothing bad went wrong. Some inonvenience, but nothing major. The next time, we'll insist on something black and white if we renovate again because this is still a business contract. One needs to protect one's own interest. If you have chemistry with the ID, it's easy to be friendly with them. But they aren't your friends.

I would highly recommend you ensure your ID gives you a week by week schedule of everything. He will definitely give you a payment schedule. You in turn should demand a completion of works schedule.

This way he knows you have something to measure his progress by. Otherwise, it can often be initial slow progress, then a mad rush to finish in the end. Corners may be cut. Think of it this way. If all you agree upon is 3 months to completion, all he's responsible for is that single deadline. He's not accountable to you for how he gets there.

I see a schedule as a way of getting value for time.Just like how you want value for money with your ID budget, you also want value for time with the time set aside for renovations. If the ID doesn't tell you how he's spending the 3 months renovating your place, perhaps you're actually getting the raw end of the deal.

I was quite hands off when it came to project management etc. and monitoring site progress. I don't think my IDs consciously did this, but they may have assumed I was more "chin chye" and took their feet off the pedal a bit. They delivered in the end, but I think it's human nature to be more "flexible" with people whom you are friendly with. This is especially so when they have multiple projects to do with limited resources.

My advice in general is to go into your renos seeing this as a 100% busienss transaction. Make sure you have Terms & Conditions for your IDs, because they surely will have them for you! Don't fall into the "I think I better treat my IDs nicely or they may drag their feet and sabo my renos" trap and overcompensate by being too generous and always leaving the ball in their court! This is one lesson I learnt as a newbie.

Hi ultimax! Thanks for leaving me some advice here as well! You've seriously been a great help. I think I'm gonna need to start a notebook with all the major points you've mentioned

I actually found this model renovation agreement from CASE. It's quite... Anyone knows if it would be appropriate to ask my ID to sign it?

[summersann 6]

Finally done with our first meetings with various IDs!

Met up with 2 IDs yesterday.

DistinctIdentity - first impression: not-too-bad. Unfortunately (or not), we were dealt the infamous style I've read from forums - a senior designer (who won't actually be designing our place) spoke to us, doing the pitching, while the actual designer who was going to be in-charge sat quietly beside, taking notes. Would have been good if we could have heard the young designer's ideas. Guess we'll have to wait for the next meeting (which, we were told, would be 2-3 weeks later. Which seems a tad too long for a company that big. Hmm..).

Project File - 2nd meeting to get our quotation. It was a slightly frustrating meeting, mostly because of communication difficulties. Nothing against the designer, but we just couldn't seem to get our idea across. The mood board (which appeared rather generic) she showed us wasn't impressive either. She seemed eager to push a style on us (industrial-loft-modern), and it was difficult to convey that the proposed style was totally off from what we previously discussed. Also, the quotation left out quite a few major items. She explained that they only fine-tune those after more discussions. Hmm..

The inability to understand each other is a definite "No" for us.

Still in the running...

1. Three-D Conceptwerke

2. Artist Room

3. The Carpenter's Workshop

4. DistinctIdentity

[ultimax 2]

Hi ultimax! Thanks for leaving me some advice here as well! You've seriously been a great help. I think I'm gonna need to start a notebook with all the major points you've mentioned

I actually found this model renovation agreement from CASE. It's quite... Anyone knows if it would be appropriate to ask my ID to sign it?

Haha no problem. Knowledge is power! Go into your renos prepared!

Yeah, the CASE agreement is a bit OTT, but it does what it's supposed to do - protect the consumer

Here's what I would insist on at the very least

1. A sketch-up/mock up once the design is finalised. Not just detailed drawings but an actual presentation of how the room will look like when put together.

2. Details of all finishings. So, don't just be OK with the ID telling you that they'll have a row of "bottom-hung cabinets." The ID must tell you how it will be configured, the materials used and its external design.

3. A schedule of works, with fixed deadlines. This will include when tile/laminate selection will be done.

4. List of things that you will need to provide which they do not, and when they will need it by. For example, lighting and aircon installation. THese are the two big things. You'll need time to make these arrangements and you don't a situation where they give you only 2 days of lead time.

Set these ground rules and everything else should be OK!

[Sygnur 0]

Ultimax.... Ur advice is indeed helpful... Thanks for sharing with us newbies/greenhorn...

At least we wont be going through it blur2...

[ultimax 2]

Ultimax.... Ur advice is indeed helpful... Thanks for sharing with us newbies/greenhorn...

At least we wont be going through it blur2...

No problem. I learnt a lot the hard way haha.

I think the golden rule is this. Your reno is a business deal in a tens of thousands of dollars. Many of us don't even handle such large contracts at work (at least I don't haha)! Yet, the ID industry is so poorly regulated and structured (unlike, say banking or finance) it's easy to forget that we're dealing with large sums of money.

I think you've got every right to want your ID to be accountable to every single detail. A certain amount of give-and-take is important to keep everyone happy, but there must be ground rules set at the start, and everyone should stick to them!

[adidaem 6]

Like managing any biz relationship you need a certain amount of give and take. Perhaps a good cop bad cop thing as well between you and your partner. Someone to be the more difficult one. Of course, expectations need to be spelt out. I think I would have been ok with a 10 week timeline if I could afford it, but we couldn't so we asked for 7 weeks. In the end it took 8 with rectifications in week 9. I expected some overrun, and the 8th week buffer was used in the end.

From the start we told every ID we meet when we need delivery by. That whittled down the list a lot. Three D told us 8 weeks not possible outright. I think having a tighter deadline means a lot more coordination so not all contractors or IDs can do it. Eg for my study room sliding door, it required 3 contractors to complete: glass installer for door, carpenter for pelmet and painter for touch up. And that is just one small part if the house. I only understood why my contractor said scheduling is hard when I saw how many sub contractors were needed.

I gave my IDs a list of all the items with specific dimensions, weblinks to vendor site, and expected delivery date. Think super organised clients. But it also indirectly told them that we have certain expectations i think. Just put things in a nice way and say that you need to know when to arrange delivery. Stuff like basins need to be integrated with carpentry, ditto ovens, hoods n hobs. Even storage heater if you want to conceal in false ceiling.

Btw for the more well known ID firms, I think you should request for the specific ID that you like based on the work you see in mags. Why pay a premium for an inexperienced ID right?

[summersann 6]

Haha no problem. Knowledge is power! Go into your renos prepared!

Yeah, the CASE agreement is a bit OTT, but it does what it's supposed to do - protect the consumer

Here's what I would insist on at the very least

1. A sketch-up/mock up once the design is finalised. Not just detailed drawings but an actual presentation of how the room will look like when put together.

2. Details of all finishings. So, don't just be OK with the ID telling you that they'll have a row of "bottom-hung cabinets." The ID must tell you how it will be configured, the materials used and its external design.

3. A schedule of works, with fixed deadlines. This will include when tile/laminate selection will be done.

4. List of things that you will need to provide which they do not, and when they will need it by. For example, lighting and aircon installation. THese are the two big things. You'll need time to make these arrangements and you don't a situation where they give you only 2 days of lead time.

Set these ground rules and everything else should be OK!

By sketch-up/mock up, do you mean the 3Ds? I always thought that was how the ID would let you know how each space would look like. Unless you mean something else?

#2 and #3 are totally good points! Noted & written down in notebook (literally!) Thank you

As for things we need to provide, I always thought they would include everything? They could provide you with lighting and aircon contacts and would bring you furniture & fittings shopping too, no?

Sigh. Such a noob

[summersann 6]

Ultimax.... Ur advice is indeed helpful... Thanks for sharing with us newbies/greenhorn...

At least we wont be going through it blur2...

I totally agree. I feel like such a noob!

[summersann 6]

Like managing any biz relationship you need a certain amount of give and take. Perhaps a good cop bad cop thing as well between you and your partner. Someone to be the more difficult one. Of course, expectations need to be spelt out. I think I would have been ok with a 10 week timeline if I could afford it, but we couldn't so we asked for 7 weeks. In the end it took 8 with rectifications in week 9. I expected some overrun, and the 8th week buffer was used in the end.

From the start we told every ID we meet when we need delivery by. That whittled down the list a lot. Three D told us 8 weeks not possible outright. I think having a tighter deadline means a lot more coordination so not all contractors or IDs can do it. Eg for my study room sliding door, it required 3 contractors to complete: glass installer for door, carpenter for pelmet and painter for touch up. And that is just one small part if the house. I only understood why my contractor said scheduling is hard when I saw how many sub contractors were needed.

We were told ours would take 8 weeks. I guess it could be because we have very little carpentry work (?). But yes, we need to specify our requirements! I shall be stricter in that aspect.

I gave my IDs a list of all the items with specific dimensions, weblinks to vendor site, and expected delivery date. Think super organised clients. But it also indirectly told them that we have certain expectations i think. Just put things in a nice way and say that you need to know when to arrange delivery. Stuff like basins need to be integrated with carpentry, ditto ovens, hoods n hobs. Even storage heater if you want to conceal in false ceiling.

You're very on top of things! I always thought the ID would bring us shopping for things. You gave your ID a list because you already knew exactly what you wanted?

Btw for the more well known ID firms, I think you should request for the specific ID that you like based on the work you see in mags. Why pay a premium for an inexperienced ID right?

You make some sense there. But I guess we kinda just liked what we saw on the firm's website, like a general "feel" of their style. So we went in without a specific name. It's all about luck sometimes! Feels like a leap of faith But now that we took that first leap of faith, we better take note of what experts like you and ultimax say so that we can better protect ourselves!

[summersann 6]

No problem. I learnt a lot the hard way haha.

I think the golden rule is this. Your reno is a business deal in a tens of thousands of dollars. Many of us don't even handle such large contracts at work (at least I don't haha)! Yet, the ID industry is so poorly regulated and structured (unlike, say banking or finance) it's easy to forget that we're dealing with large sums of money.

I think you've got every right to want your ID to be accountable to every single detail. A certain amount of give-and-take is important to keep everyone happy, but there must be ground rules set at the start, and everyone should stick to them!

Question: Should we be stating this in our existing contract with the ID, or should we draft up a separate contract just to include our terms and conditions?

[adidaem 6]

By sketch-up/mock up, do you mean the 3Ds? I always thought that was how the ID would let you know how each space would look like. Unless you mean something else?

#2 and #3 are totally good points! Noted & written down in notebook (literally!) Thank you

As for things we need to provide, I always thought they would include everything? They could provide you with lighting and aircon contacts and would bring you furniture & fittings shopping too, no?

Sigh. Such a noob

I didn't get the full sketch-up until we signed. But by the time we signed we got a fairly good idea of the design etc cos quotation is based on the design proposed.

This was the sketch-up that we got. Some IDs provide 3Ds instead.

http://emrenoblog.wordpress.com/2011/07/16/3d-sketches-level-1/

http://emrenoblog.wordpress.com/2011/07/18/3d-sketches-–-level-2/

Aircon we were insistent to use our aircon specialist so that we get proper technicians (and servicing) and not those iffy ones like Gain City. I got irritated talking to salesmen who didn't even know what BTU is required based on the room size. We used Aircon Designs.

Some IDs will bring you to their 'preferred' stores, but it's cos they get commissions. So you may want to utilise ur own contacts. For us our IDs passed on the discounts for lights (LightCraft) and toilet fixtures (Toto/W Atelier) to us. They did bring us shopping for the fittings, but for lights in in the end we let them decide cos we trusted them (actually realised that they are pickier than us and we didn't enjoy lights shopping, haha).

Furniture wise not all IDs will provide the hand-holding service. In fact I think very few. So if you want that, then you have to find IDs who do so. Anyway furniture wise my IDs and I don't always share the same taste, but I like mine better.

We were told ours would take 8 weeks. I guess it could be because we have very little carpentry work (?). But yes, we need to specify our requirements! I shall be stricter in that aspect.

You're very on top of things! I always thought the ID would bring us shopping for things. You gave your ID a list because you already knew exactly what you wanted?

You make some sense there. But I guess we kinda just liked what we saw on the firm's website, like a general "feel" of their style. So we went in without a specific name. It's all about luck sometimes! Feels like a leap of faith But now that we took that first leap of faith, we better take note of what experts like you and ultimax say so that we can better protect ourselves!

Duration depends on the extent of work. Mine was a total overhaul, multiple walls down and reconfiguring of walls. It also depends on the type of design. For mine, cos of the 'clean' look, more work is required... e.g. industrial look with exposed wirings are much easier IMO.

We noted down a list of items anyway for budgeting. For some items that require measurements or have space constraints, we asked for maximum measurements - e.g. even fridge also need to know how much space for it in the kitchen right? So we shopped based on those measurements, and once we finalised our purchases, we gave the final measurements to our IDs to incorporate into the carpentry design/measurement.

When we started contacting IDs, we also didn't know/think to ask for specific IDs. But after wasting time explaining our requirements to inexperienced IDs, it's something that I will remember for my next reno. Only talk to IDs whose work caught our eye in the 1st place and not to their associates/colleagues who may not share the same sense of aesthetics. I see good design as a form of art that requires a degree of natural talent, plus enough project management experience to pull the design off. Not something to entrust to inexperienced or perhaps not as talented IDs.

[ahlipz 0]

Furniture wise not all IDs will provide the hand-holding service. In fact I think very few. So if you want that, then you have to find IDs who do so. Anyway furniture wise my IDs and I don't always share the same taste, but I like mine better.

Haha, I loved that sentence that you loved your furniture taste more than your ID

My ID brought me to shop for lights, toilet & kitchen accessories, furniture...etc

I do believe that one of your ID job is to make sure all your furnishing complement one another.

Example - you really love that shocking pink lounge chair but will it be able to blend in with your overall Scandinavian or minimalist theme? Nuff said, that is for you to decide since you will be the one staying there, not your ID

[ultimax 2]

By sketch-up/mock up, do you mean the 3Ds? I always thought that was how the ID would let you know how each space would look like. Unless you mean something else?

#2 and #3 are totally good points! Noted & written down in notebook (literally!) Thank you

As for things we need to provide, I always thought they would include everything? They could provide you with lighting and aircon contacts and would bring you furniture & fittings shopping too, no?

Sigh. Such a noob

Don't worry about it. Better to ask now then to regret not asking in the first place

Yes, by sketch-up I was refering to an impression of the final product, which is typically in the form of a computer generated 3D drawing. What you want is to see how everything will look together. Talking generally about design concepts (themes, what goes where etc.) and seeing them in detail, can be very different. Things like proportion aren't apparent when you discuss a design conceptually, but are immediately visible when you see a diagram. You don't want any surprises! One of my friends had to demolish a wall himself because he had only seen it in a 2D layout and didn't realise it'd be that ugly in real life. Thankfully he visited his place an hr after the wall was put up so the cement was still wet. When he called the ID, he was told to just knock it down himself (the workers had already left by then).

How much "hand-holding" an ID provides varies. If he takes you shopping for items, I think you can assume he'll do so with his work flow in mind, so there's no issue with no having the items when he needs it. But if he doesn't, or perhaps you don't like what he's recommending, or the shops he's taking you to, you'll need some time to shop on your own. You'll then need to know when the ID will need everything by.

You don't want to receive a msg from yoru ID telling you he needs your lights in 2 days time coz that's when the electrician is coming down. And when you tell the ID you need maybe a week to get them, your renos may stall. And it may be "your fault" because you didn't have the lights ready.

If you're too casual with your ID, he may run things according to his own convenience, and his schedule, not yours. It's a balancing act. You can't ride your ID too hard and be unreasonable, but you can't be too hands off either. Remember, you're the boss. You need to know what's going on! It's good to always have your renos mapped out so you can plan ahead.

Edited October 14, 2012 by ultimax

[spiffysue 0]

Wow 14 weeks?? Mine took 8 weeks for complete overhaul... 14 weeks is too long man. Poor thing. What stage is your reno at now?

yup it's been really frustrating..we are now almost done, with minor things left like installation of toilet accessories and final coat of paint. FINALLY!

[spiffysue 0]

I think agreeing on a schedule is important. We didn't do this, partly because we're pretty trusting and had given our IDs a generous amount of time for the work required. But in hindsight, as clients, this was pretty stupid. I guess we were lucky nothing bad went wrong. Some inonvenience, but nothing major. The next time, we'll insist on something black and white if we renovate again because this is still a business contract. One needs to protect one's own interest. If you have chemistry with the ID, it's easy to be friendly with them. But they aren't your friends.

My advice in general is to go into your renos seeing this as a 100% busienss transaction. Make sure you have Terms & Conditions for your IDs, because they surely will have them for you! Don't fall into the "I think I better treat my IDs nicely or they may drag their feet and sabo my renos" trap and overcompensate by being too generous and always leaving the ball in their court! This is one lesson I learnt as a newbie.

i totally agree. in retrospect, we should have asked for the Date of Completion in black and white, so that we have a stronger case. of course, if they have any decency whatsoever, they should know that 15 weeks reno is crazy - don't need paper to prove

the infuriating thing is we asked for a project schedule multiple times, and each time, the Proj Mgr would say "ok ok, will send it soon" but we never received one. after the 4th/5th week of reno, we got so busy with the millions of decisions and gave up asking.

i think the problem with my ID is that they are overworked. when we demanded that they stick to the handover date last week, they said they just REALLY couldn't find enough workers because there were too many projects on hand. is this valid?? sorry but i don't give a f*** about your lack of workers - you took up this amount of projects, you have to manage them properly and deliver on time.

that's one thing i learnt as a noob - popular ID companies may have better experience due to their larger portfolios. but it also means they may not have much attention for you. my friend who went with a lesser known ID had her reno (same amt of work, same sqf) done in 8 weeks and her ID himself went down every single day.

anyway, this being our 1st exp, we'll take it as lessons learnt and have a smoother exp the next time! *cross fingers*